
We’ve noted before that James Taranto is, on occasion, one of those conservatives who like to equate “feminism” with “radical feminism,” and paint the entire women’s movement with an extremely broad brush.
And we’re sorry to have to keep pointing this out, since we’re actually fangirls of Taranto’s column and have been crushing on him intellectually for years. Most of what he says on the subject of male-female roles is interesting and thought-provoking: there is plenty of real insight there, because the sea changes in sex mores over the past 50 years have been very expensive for a lot of households, and some of them have to be reevaluated in a very sober fashion.
At the very same time, Taranto is prone to an oversimplification—emphasizing the destructive side of feminism—that is really prevalent on the right, and can be dangerous, for three reasons. First off, many independents and moderates interpret the word “feminist” to be merely “anti-sexist.” To rail against feminism without noting that not all of it was radical can mark conservatives and Republicans as potentially, or even predominantly, sexist—which conveniently underscores a false liberal-left narrative about us.
Also, it’s just not true. We can say this, using the Tarantoian “we,” since we once tried to start a conciousness-raising group at the age of eight. (The other eight-year-old girls in the neighborhood were less interested in consciousness-rasing than in playing with their Barbie dolls, so we eventually went with the consensus choice: Barbies it was.) At the time, we pointed out to everyone assembled there, Barbies and little girls alike, that the answer wasn’t just to assume that boys were better, and to do what boys did for the sake of that. (Later on, we realized that guns and trains are Teh Awesome, and gave boys their props for having grasped that from a young age.) We thought then, and think now, that it’s possible to be feminine and to be ambitious, at the very same time.
To generalize about feminists based on its radicals, thirdly, has the effect of driving a wedge between working women and stay-at-home moms on the right, which is sub-optimal when an Obama ally, Hilary Rosen, has just made that very same unforced error on the left.
Conflating “gender feminism” (or radicalism) with “equity feminism” (the individualist, and—dare we say—conservative version) is to grant entirely too much ground to the left.
Consider: there were, famously, two threads within “third-wave feminism” (that of the 1960s and 1970s) with respect to sexual mores, and that resulted in contradictory schools of thought regarding such issues as erotica and sexual liberation, with one branch of the “women’s movement” acting as proponents of loosened codes of conduct—in practice, advocating a “let’s see if we can beat the men at their own game” sexual ethic—while another branch railed against the “objectification” of women, and men who might (and did) exploit them sexually. The rap on the women’s movement as being essentially prudish was fully developed by the 1980s, when sexual harassment laws began to get so stringent, at the behest of prude-school feminists, that normal workplace banter between women and men became increasingly off-limits. Eventually, some workplaces demanded that men refrain from displaying family pictures, if their wives were wearing bikinis. That’s how “sexually liberated” some feminists were.
Likewise, there have always been two schools of thought within the women’s movement regarding traditional gender roles. There has, from the beginning, been huge tension between those who wanted to simply increase the options that women had—such that females weren’t drafted into homemaking, but rather freely chose it, if they liked—versus those who wanted to fundamentally change the role of nearly all females within the larger economy. The radical version of feminism was related to that in the U.S.S.R., wherein women were expected to work full time outside the home, while still doing all the childcare and maintenance within it—this gave most Russian ladies the worst of both worlds, but the ultra-radicals here were certain that they could sever the connection between women and motherhood, if they just wished hard enough. Normal middle-class women weren’t having it: they wanted to have job skills as a hedge against controlling or abusive mates, but they still wanted to have children, and to raise them—though with more input from the fathers, who were no longer banished to a “discipline-only” role.
The number of feminists who wanted to actually remove the option of being a stay-at-home mother was always very small; it’s just that the group was particularly vocal. More usual was the advice I was given as a teenager by a family friend who considered herself a feminist: that as I thought about career options, I should make sure whatever I picked could be done part-time, and that I ought to consider jobs that could be done in many parts of the country (she was a biologist who worked in a specialized lab; there were only several of them in the entire nation at the time).
My mother, on the other hand, maintained that there were probably a number of men who would be happier if they could spend more time with their kids: her argument with the rigid 1950s roles was that men got short-changed out of fatherhood, when it was made out to be part of the “women’s sphere”—and that only.
One thing that is difficult to convey to people who didn’t spend the 1960s and 1970s sleeplessly devouring miscellaneous magazines, from my father’s copies of Playboy to my grandparents’ Readers’ Digests, is just how respectable it was to denigrate female competence and intelligence before the women’s movement gained a foothold—and before it was prevalent.
It is easy to fantasize that without third-wave feminists everything would be just as it is now, only without the marriage tax penalty, and without extremists such as Hilary Rosen denigrating stay-at-home mothers. No, no: Leaf through vintage magazines of the 1960s and 1970s to see how limited girls’ and women’s horizons were back then—how much we were equated with our bodies, and how secondary we were to the stars of the show, the males: so much of what the West dislikes about Sharia law is written all over advertisements from just half a century ago, in this country. The old guard didn’t just advocate a practical division of responsibilities between men and women: it went beyond that.
There is a sensible middle ground here for conservatives—one in which we regard third-wave feminists as having pointed out that women are equal to men in the sight of God, and worthy of equal wages for equal work for equal numbers of years—and yet free to stay at home and share our passion, talent, and brainpower with our kids, if we and our spouses so choose.
We can do that while rejecting the sexually abusive elements of the 1970s, and the bland “ideal” of a unisex world. We can also point out that there are real trade-offs to making motherhood a “second career,” and sometimes American women have erred on the side of postponing motherhood too long: getting married before 30 makes sense for many couples, and in a lot of instances it’s worth making real sacrifices for. So is having one person take the lead on many parenthood decisions.
At the same time, biology isn’t destiny.
The GOP is not the party of rigid sex roles. The GOP is the “come as you are party party”: we believe that individuals and families can make these decisions for themselves. We love women who work in the home, and those who work outside the home; we want to keep families’ tax burdens low so that they can make parenting and housework determinations for themselves. We love science. We love rational atheists, and people of faith. We love free markets.
That is conservative.
Further reading:
On the web—
The last time I chided my idol, it was over Rick Santorum, and birth control, and it went on more or less forever . . .
In convenient dead-tree format—
The Male Mystique: Men’s Magazine Ads from the 1960s and 70s—these are so quaint in retrospect, in an “isn’t that cute and I’m so glad we’re past that” sort of way
The Dream and the Nightmare: The Sixties’ Legacy to the Underclass—Myron Magnet discusses what happened in the 20th century that made it more difficult for poorer and working-class people to get by; this is one of the concerns that Taranto discusses in his columns. It is a real one, and yet feminism—even mainstream feminism, much less radical feminism—is only one piece in that huge puzzle. Read this book.



Meep on April 12, 2012 at 8:14 pm said:
All I will say is the reason I’m not a feminist (in terms of the label) is all the shade thrown my ma’s way for being a stay-at-home mom.
And sorry, biology is destiny inasmuch the guys ain’t the ones birthin the babies. I tried to negotiate on the last kid w/ Stu (after all, that one was a boy), but alas, pregnancy was not within his wheelhouse.
Dammit.
Joy McCann on April 12, 2012 at 8:26 pm said:
Well, the label is one of those things that conservative chicks-of-achievement don’t all see eye-to-eye on, just because it can mean so many different things: obviously, whose who associate it with hustling women into having abortions wholesale aren’t going to view it positively. Nor are women like you who saw the rigid sex roles go in the opposite direction from what the “separate spheres” crowd tried to impose.
Most of that is pretty semantic, which is a large part of my point.
And I have never had any issue with those who don’t want the label for themselves; I just want to underscore that egalitarianism and individual liberty are a big part of what the GOP has always stood for. And the good kind of feminist sees outside work for moms as something that should be an option–but never an abstract societal imperative.
Meep on April 12, 2012 at 8:45 pm said:
Well, it would be a bit difficult to claim that as an ultra-conservative, I’m interested in keeping wimminfolk in the kitchen barefoot & pregnant…. sure, I’m barefoot, but my fecund days are over. Also, I’m a crappy cook. Finally, it’s my husband who’s the one staying home w/ the kids.
Comparative advantage and all that.
I have had my fill of various female grievance-mongers from my short-lived academic career, and I really got sick of liberal men telling me how I should feel as a woman (wtf?) So I will have nothing to do with the sex wars crap.
Joy McCann on April 12, 2012 at 8:55 pm said:
I get the feeling that the BS around gender in most academic environments is so oppressive that most folks can barely breathe there. Especially if they are male, or have common sense.
And of course I was just about ready to throw up in the 1990s, when the “women’s movement leaders” were ready to go to the mat (in any number of senses) for Bill Clinton . . . that was a sign of intellectual bankruptcy.
I’m just cautioning folk that we can get all caught up in team spirit, and lose track of the fact that sexism is evil, too. A lot of Westerners recoil at Sharia law, but romanticize “separate spheres” more than they should.
Cassandra on April 12, 2012 at 9:55 pm said:
All I will say is the reason I’m not a feminist (in terms of the label) is all the shade thrown my ma’s way for being a stay-at-home mom.
I was a stay at home wife and mother for over 20 years and have been a career woman for another decade. During that time I watched working moms sneer at SAHMs and SAHMs sneer at and heap guilt upon working moms. There’s no real daylight between the two groups because there are morons in every group of humans that ever lived, male or female, working or non-working.
I’ve never thought of myself as a feminist. That doesn’t mean I don’t get extremely irritated when conservative men (and some women!) blame everything from hangnails to the heartbreak of psoriasis on feminism. To do so requires a uniquely selective grasp of 20th century history. But even worse, it plays into every overwrought Lefty stereotype about threatened conservative sexists who won’t be happy until we uppity womynfolk are safely chained to our Easy Bake ovens and deprived of access to birth control :p
Odd that these folks never rail against Hugh Hefner, who crusaded for abortion rights and made millions of dollars denigrating marriage and parasitic, money grubbing stay at home wives back in the 1950s… long before Friedan et al came along to harsh the collective mellows of The Patriarchy.
The selective amnesia is a little hard to take sometimes.
Speaking of which…
Anyone who has ever done the math knows that uneducated moms rarely make enough to cover the cost of child care, transportation, and clothing. It never made sense for me to work until our boys were grown and I finished school and could earn a decent salary. This is so obvious I’m surprised it needs saying.
But then I’m surprised to see smart conservatives like Taranto constantly parroting the Left’s talking points about poor women who “don’t have the luxury of staying home”.
NAME REDACTED on April 12, 2012 at 11:12 pm said:
“I was a stay at home wife and mother for over 20 years and have been a career woman for another decade. During that time I watched working moms sneer at SAHMs and SAHMs sneer at and heap guilt upon working moms.”
Yah, what most women describe as misogyny, seems to come mostly from other women. I’m not sure why that is…. status competition?
Cassandra on April 12, 2012 at 11:49 pm said:
…what most women describe as misogyny, seems to come mostly from other women. I’m not sure why that is…. status competition?
I’ve never cared much for the terms “misogyny” or “misandry”. Both mean “hatred of…”, not simply conflict with. Conflict is human.
Men put women down, women put men down. Some men belittle other men and some women belittle other women.
I suspect we notice whatever confirms what we already think.
Joy McCann on April 13, 2012 at 12:26 am said:
This has always astonished me about that particular sort of . . . well, the Bitter Male who insists that women “say they want one thing in a man, but really want another.” (I know I’m generalizing here, but if there’s anyone who has not heard this from unhappy men, I’m truly astonished.)
Because what has usually happened, if you ask the man, is that he’s heard one group of women say that they like x, whereas others like y, and he has observed yet others being attracted to z. And he’s frustrated, being bounced from pillar to post that way.
And it would be so much simpler if we would disclose just what the consensus was at the last National Meeting of Women Deciding What They Like in Men.
I swear I have heard this complaint like, ten times—from guys who don’t seem to understand that what attracts a woman might just be specific to that woman. That we might actually be individuals.
NAME REDACTED on April 13, 2012 at 1:29 am said:
“I swear I have heard this complaint like, ten times—from guys who don’t seem to understand that what attracts a woman might just be specific to that woman. That we might actually be individuals.”
You misunderstand their complaint. What he is actually complaining about is specific women not actually knowing what they like, or specific women not being able to comunicate to him how he can become what they like.
They are trying to figure out what exactly a woman wants, because they are frustrated at not being able to please women in a capacity beyond “friend”. This is why they are “Bitter Males,” as you put it. They has good reason for their bitterness. This is probably the most frustrating experience a man can have; as to most men, most women to seem oblique and extremely confusing. And furthermore the more attractive a woman is, the more confusing she usually is!
Anyway, I feel sorry for those guys and am glad I am past all that now. If I had figured things out when I was in my twenties, or some older male (who wasn’t a parent) had taken me to the side and explained things, I would have avoided a lot of frustration. Now that I think about it, my mother tried to explain it to me, but I rejected what she said because it clashed so much with the feminist-lite beliefs that I had grown up around.
A lot of the confusion arises because each man (to other men) is usually transparent and generally unchanging, or changes very slowly thought his life. Women, are more complex and much more mysterious. This chalenge is a (small) part of what makes women so damned interesting!
It took me a while to realize that it was like a very complex dance, with each side making a “move” and then the other side making a “move.” Once I began to see it more like a complex unknown dance to and less like a puzzle, it was a lot less frustrating. Now I am happily married, and have a lot of fun with the relationship I have with my wife.
Cassandra on April 13, 2012 at 7:11 am said:
“It took me a while to realize that it was like a very complex dance, with each side making a “move” and then the other side making a “move.” Once I began to see it more like a complex unknown dance to and less like a puzzle, it was a lot less frustrating. Now I am happily married, and have a lot of fun with the relationship I have with my wife.”
You are wise, Obi-Wan :p
I’ve always thought the biggest single problem between men and women is that each sees the way they think and react as “normal” and rational. Therefore, their partner must abnormal and unreasonable.
It takes a bit of living to realize that men and women just don’t think in the same way. Your man isn’t “behaving that way” because he’s a jerk (assuming of course that he is a good person). He’s not doing X to get on your nerves. He’s doing X because he sees the world differently.
And the same is true of women. She’s not deliberately setting out to ruin your day. She sees the world differently, and it’s just as natural for her to react as women do as it is for men to react as men do. A feature, not a defect.
If you’re a guy and won’t give your wife what she needs to be happy (respect and emotional intimacy), she will be unhappy. Unhappy people are harder to get along with. You can tell yourself that she shouldn’t want what she wants, but who are you to second guess the way God made her?
If you’re a gal and won’t give your husband what he needs to be happy (respect and sex), he will be unhappy. Unhappy people are harder to get along with. You can tell yourself that he shouldn’t want what he wants, but who are you to second guess the way God made him?
The real genius of happy marriages is that bit by bit, they force men and women to step outside their own skins for a moment and see life through a different lens. You both become better people. This takes a lot of effort, but the end result is so worth it.
Cassandra on April 13, 2012 at 7:24 am said:
And it would be so much simpler if we would disclose just what the consensus was at the last National Meeting of Women Deciding What They Like in Men.
Joy, you ignorant slut :p
Everyone knows that the only credible authorities on what women like in men are single and divorced men who don’t like or respect women! Just like the only credible authorities on why men are the way they are are gender feminists who think all our problems would go *poof* and unicorns would fly out of our collective tuckii if the world were run by women.
Similarly, if you want good advice on getting hired, ask someone who can’t seem to get or keep a job.Actual experience getting along with the opposite sex is a major tipoff that that person doesn’t know what they’re talking about.
/sarcasm
Tennwriter on April 13, 2012 at 5:02 pm said:
I’m happily married, but it seems to me that the Bitter Males have a point. Women, a large percentage of the time, do not want what they say they want. You have to learn how to outthink your female in order to keep her happy.
The interesting question here is whether this is on purpose, or a lack of self knowledge on the part of women.
As to the individual thing, yes, to a degree. Women, in my experience, dislike categorization more than males. They want to be seen as ‘my private brand of heroin’. But this is only to a degree. It would help if women admitted that there are subtypes of them, and so forth.
Joy McCann on April 13, 2012 at 5:44 pm said:
I may let Cassandra pick this one up, since she knows more normal people than I do.
I personally freely concede that I’m not interested in any many who isn’t brilliant. I mean, it sounds awful to say it, but if the hardware isn’t there . . . I’m not interested. It wouldn’t have been fair of me to try.
The one little point I might make is that, as they say, “actions speak louder than words.” That is, if your woman is telling you in words that she want parsnips, but her actions say that she prefers ice cream–well, I’d get her the ice cream, myself.
On the whole, people are less “problems to be solved” than “mysteries to be embraced,” but if there is some engineering involved . . . well, make a key that fits the lock, and put it in. Don’t expect her to hand you a diagram to her psyche.
HeatherRadish on April 13, 2012 at 8:23 am said:
“During that time I watched working moms sneer at SAHMs and SAHMs sneer at and heap guilt upon working moms. ”
And then they band together and put aside their differences to sneer at the non-mothers. I’ve been told I’m Not a Real Woman by both married no-work-outside-the-home conservatives and “single mother” living-off-the-state proggs. I’m also called selfish, childish, and my personal favorite “not contributing to society.” (I sent in my taxes this week, that last one is total bullshit.)
I suppose if this was a “choice” I could shrug it off, but I was raised to believe you should have a husband first and babies second…then no one wanted to marry me for assorted reasons (summary: I am defective), so here I am, making women on both sides of the “mommy wars” feel better about themselves.
At least I’m an anachronism; girls today get the babies first, then maybe husband sometime later. So the dregs of my generation will be the last to suffer through this.
Anyway, it would behoove women to remember they didn’t choose to be a stay-at-home-mother, a man chose them to be a stay-at-home-mother, and there’s no need to be so scornful of women less fortunate.
Joy McCann on April 13, 2012 at 3:32 pm said:
I think women choose to be stay-at-home mothers–but of course it’s a household decision that a couple makes together.
I’m childless, too.
This isn’t any of my business, really, but I would spend as little time around people who judge you for that as humanly possible: it sounds like you know some real pieces of work.
itsamazing2me on April 12, 2012 at 9:57 pm said:
Feminists should have voted for “Nuancy Boy” John Kerry when they had a chance.
Otherwise — we are all HUMANS. Period. End of story.
richard40 on April 13, 2012 at 6:12 pm said:
Good article. And as a man I agree with you.
Real conservatives should be about freedom, and individuals choosing their own roles. I do suspect the biology favors women in the role of primary caregivers for children, and therefore we should make things as easy as we can for mothers. But in any population there are large individual differences, and women who want to stay at home full time, if they have a husband to support them, should be able to make that choice. and women who wish to have children and work full time, or women who wish to delay childbirth, or not have children at all, should be able to make that choice as well.
Interesting that it is often the leftist feminists, whose prime value is supposed to be choice, that too often try to reduce womens choices. One example is their insistance there shoudld be no difference at all between men and women at all, plainly denying that many women freely choose a different role. Another is their denigation of women who choose to be full time mothers.
In reality I have noticed that other than abortion, leftist feminists often try to restrict our choices. Just as supposedly open and free speech leftists, are all too ready to restrict the speech of non-leftists. Sometimes elements of the right tries to restrict choices as well, like on pornagraphy or homosexuality. My view is real conservatism should be about preserving freedom and choices, not restricting them.
Joy McCann on April 13, 2012 at 7:06 pm said:
Thank you. And, yes: I don’t see why we can’t all simply agree that family-building is a positive good, that the state shouldn’t be doing things destructive to that goal, and that at the very same time it should not be micro-managing the process.
Instead, our side spends a lot of time tearing Mrs. Palin down for calling herself a “feminist” . . .
Criminy. If the word bothers you, find something else to mentally substitute, and get on with life.
Roxeanne de Luca on April 13, 2012 at 7:27 pm said:
In some areas, it still is acceptable. (Look at the 2008 campaign: misogyny was permissible, but asking about Rev. Wright was racism. Go figure.)
Snark aside, you’re absolutely correct. As I keep saying, there is a reason why feminism happened: men were treated as individuals, but women were a collective – and a mediocre one at that. What we fought for was the right to be individuals, and to be treated with respect.
NAME REDACTED on April 14, 2012 at 8:01 pm said:
You have it backwards. Women now are treated as a collective, just as much if not more than before.
Starless on April 14, 2012 at 8:27 am said:
Criminy. If the word bothers you, find something else to mentally substitute, and get on with life.
This isn’t a matter of mere semantics. To more than a few people, this is representative of what feminism is today and what it has been for at least the past few decades, and seeing it this way isn’t the result of general ignorance, reflexive denial, or a lack of an understanding of (gender) history. Nor is it a juvenile tactic employed to get a pass on sexist behavior.
NAME REDACTED on April 14, 2012 at 8:15 pm said:
Its been that way for years, Starless.
My mother helped start a feminist club in the late 60′s/early 70′s at her university. The lesbian separatists took it over within a few years.
Joy McCann on April 14, 2012 at 9:28 pm said:
“This isn’t a matter of mere semantics. To more than a few people, this is representative of what feminism is today and what it has been for at least the past few decades, and seeing it this way isn’t the result of general ignorance, reflexive denial, or a lack of an understanding of (gender) history. Nor is it a juvenile tactic employed to get a pass on sexist behavior.”
Then what is it? Why are people determined to throw stones at Mrs. Palin, at Darleen, at Roxeanne, and at me? What possible good can be done by splintering the conservative meoment in an election year?
You explain that a lot of people are put off by the excesses committed in the name of feminism, and you helpfully point out that Hilary Rosen made a jab at stay-at-home moms (which . . . thank you). In doing this, you underscore the fact that the word “feminist” has, to many, some negative connotations, but you 1) neglect the positive connotations that it has for many young people around the country; and 2) essentially argue by assertion that it isn’t semantic.
What about the actual denotation of the word?
Some of this is semantic, and some of it is not: the semantics have to do with what the word means (I use the Merriam-Webster definition), and the larger issue behind that has to do with whether males and females are intrinsically equal in the sight of God. Not “the same”—equal. Of equal worth. That is to say, not intrinsically superior [usually meaning that males are that], and not intrinsically inferior [usually meaning that females are that].
Over the course of the past 24-48 hours, I’ve actually put the question directly to a number of conservative males: Are men and women equal? Many have been offended that I’ve even asked the question, and then gone on to say, essentially, “of course they are not. Men are better than women, but it’s unfair for you to ask in so many words.”
It is not unfair, and it is not off-limits. Because if you don’t believe that the sexes are of equal worth, you are either 1) saying that all females are inferior to all males, or 2) allowing that some extraordinary females (and I may be among them, or I may not) are equal to men.
But in either event, it says more about the person making that assertion than it does about me, or anyone who possesses a double-X chromosome.
Because it is one thing to suggest that someone ought to be at home with young kids, and that over large populations it’s practical for that person to be the woman, and that it’s usually more efficient for one person to manage the household while another earns the paycheck.
It is another thing to say that men contain within them more human worth than do women.
Use the word, or do not use it. I don’t care. But with it or without it, please try to be precise.
That is all I ask.
NAME REDACTED on April 15, 2012 at 2:34 am said:
Er, can you quote someone who said this?
Its an idiotic question, because humans aren’t fungible. Males aren’t equal to women and women aren’t equal to men. Two men aren’t even equal to each other. Are apples and hammers equal? Well, no… they are completely different things. We conservatives and libertarians are individualists. We don’t like people trying to say that some people have value or that they don’t or what that value is relative to someone else. By even asking your question, you are completely missing the point.
Women aren’t “better” than men, and men aren’t “better” than women. Neither are they the “same” value as each other. Unlike morality, value and worth is subjective and ordinal! Valuations exist wholly in the mind of the valuer. I value some women (my wife for example) more than I do all men. I value some men (my coworkers for example) more than I do most women. I value some men more than others, etc etc. Not everyone holds these same valuations.
Someone else will value these people differently. I really doubt you value my wife, higher than you do one of your good friends. This is right and proper. Someone may ask, “well which value is right the right valuation.” I will answer, that its a bad question. Value placed on things is a property of the valuer NOT a property of the valued.
You are asking the wrong questions, Joy. The right question is “how should a man treat a woman in x or y situations.” Questions like that make sense and are meaningful. Questions like “which is better men or women” are malformed and meaningless.
NAME REDACTED on April 15, 2012 at 2:36 am said:
Hrm, I think my tone may have been unintentionally too strident in that last reply.
NAME REDACTED on April 15, 2012 at 2:45 am said:
Lets look at an example:
Of the most horrible, misogynist societies on earth: Saudi Arabia. They do not allow women out of the house without a chaperone. Why is this? …because they value those woman incredibly highly, and want to protect her from evil worthless men.
So clearly the reason for misogyny isn’t of value, but is something else. Its one of improper morals. The question should be, “What is the proper way to treat woman X in situation Y” not “what is more valuable, a man or woman.”